Brightlords and ladies, parshendi and spren! Have you gotten your fill of speculation after reading chapters 10-12 of Oathbringer? Well, you’ve come to the right place, because this week Alice and I are tackling chapters 7 and 8 of Edgedancer! These chapters are considerably meatier than those we’ve analyzed so far, so strap in and prepare yourselves for some Diabolical Deeds, Awesome Adventures, and Scrupulous Spren! Alice, you got any more fun alliterative descriptions of these chapters?
Alice: Edgedancer Eavesdropping and Purloined Pancakes, naturally!
The Awesomeness
Chapter 7: After her encounter with Stump and the Philosopher, Lift has a discussion with Wyndle in which she theorizes why Stump may be trading dun spheres for infused ones (none of her theories are terribly complimentary). She follows Captain Hauka back to the captain’s apartment and climbs the wall, where she falls asleep, leaving Wyndle to keep watch. He wakes her some time later to inform her that Darkness has arrived. She listens in as Darkness interrogates Hauka about Lift’s antics earlier, then follows when he leaves.
Chapter 8: Lift tails Darkness into a market, where he catches a young thief. He summarily kills her with his shard(honor?)blade. Lift attempts to heal her, but fails (*sob*). She follows Darkness back to a building, grows a tree outside of a first floor window in order to gain entry, and proceeds to steal his pancakes.
Kadasixes and Stars
“Anytime you can make someone else feel something, you’ve got power over them.”
Lyn: This is SHOCKINGLY insightful for such a young woman, and really speaks volumes about both her fear of attachment and how mature she is (for her supposed age). An argument is always more persuasive if you can elicit an emotional response.
Alice: All true, Lyn. Lift is such a chameleon, it’s often a shock when she says something so profound. When she wants to annoy Wyndle, she talks like a street urchin, but when she forgets to be annoying, she’s astonishingly perceptive and articulate.
“You did come to the city chasing him,” Wyndle said.
“Pure coincidence,” she mumbled.
“No it’s not. You showed off your powers to that guard captain, knowing that she’d write a report about what she saw. And you knew that would draw Darkness’s attention.”
“I can’t search a whole city for one man; I needed a way to get him to come to me. Didn’t expect him to find this place so quickly though. Must have some scribe watching reports.”
A: She’s also clever—and occasionally too clever for her own good. I’ll admit that I honestly didn’t think very much about why she made such a scene at the guard post, very visibly snitching food and dumping the grain. She’s perfectly capable of doing something like that solely to get some food and some entertainment. Besides, it was a way to get into the city and at the same time take food from a thief and give it to the hungry, which is a very Lift sort of thing to do. So, yes, I had to have it spelled out for me: she did it primarily to get Darkness out looking for her. The rest was just serendipity. Crazy child. And again, it shows remarkable understanding of human behavior.
L: I’ll go after this from a more “analysis of writing” stance in a later section.
Pet Voidbringer
“She’d never been good with time”
L: MORE EVIDENCE AS TO MY THEORY THAT SHE’S WAY OLDER THAN SHE LETS ON.
A: Ummmm… Sure, Lyn. Absolutely.
L: You’ll see! You’ll all see! ::maniacal laughter::
“You don’t need sleep, right, Voidbringer?” “I do not.”
L: Well that’s an interesting little tidbit of information.
A: Okay, so I had to go look it up, because it seemed like I knew that already. Kaladin had the same question for Syl—she was amused by the idea—and asked her to keep watch over him at night to make sure Gaz didn’t try to kill him in his sleep. (TWoK, Chapter 14)
L: Unsurprisingly, I had completely forgotten about this.
“If she didn’t use the power, it eventually vanished. Took about a half a day.”
L: Good to know.
A: So… does that mean she can only turn it into stormlight while it’s in her stomach or small intestine? Sounds like it, if Brandon did his usual research. Once the food gets beyond a certain point in the system, or beyond a certain degree of digestion, she can’t use it.
L: This is interesting. If my understanding of biology is correct (and please note that it’s been a long time since I took any classes), the way that the body metabolizes energy from food is that enzymes in the stomach and intestine break the food down into amino acids and glucose, which are in turn used by cells as energy. The stormlight reaction, however, appears to happen almost immediately upon ingestion. Does this mean that there’s a secondary biological function happening here, happening before the body’s natural processes? If not, how much of the nutrients are being allocated for stormlight and how much for the body’s necessary functions? Lift doesn’t seem as if she’s eating considerably more than she should (like some of the Flashes from DC Comics have to, for example), which leads me to believe that there’s some sort of secondary reaction happening here.
A: Well, I’m not really capable of intelligent evaluation on this subject. I skipped biology and went for chemistry, so anything I know about it would only be google-fu. On a guess, based solely on how I read her Interlude, I’d say there’s some of both. She gets some nourishment from anything she eats, but not as much as she would if she weren’t turning it into Investiture right away.
“Mistress, please don’t get yourself killed. It would be traumatic. Why, I think it would take me months and months to get over it!”
L: Only months, huh, Wyndle? Nice. Real nice.
A: Okay, I laughed! But her rejoinder was a winner: “That’s faster than I’d get over it.”
L: Let’s talk about how much power it takes to do things, as this is a bit of a sticking point for me in the Stormlight Archive. I love this series, but nothing’s perfect, after all. She has a little bit of awesomeness left over from what she ate last night, since I don’t think she ever managed to get a bite of that purple fruit, and with that she manages to grow this tree probably a few feet (something that usually takes months to years in the real world), the rockbuds around her feet, some vines, and (presumably) unconsciously grow the vines that were surrounding her in the morning when she’d woken up. This seems to belie Wyndle’s earlier assertion that growing things will take more energy than consuming them would provide! If she can grow this tree a couple FEET on such a tiny amount of awesomeness, I can’t imagine that expending enough to grow a few fruits would be much of an issue either… Perhaps someone who is more well versed in physics (conservation of energy?) or biology can weigh in on this one. I will note that she says “a couple pieces of fruit didn’t provide much”—so she did eat that purple fruit earlier, then?
A: There are a couple more steps in there, actually. We don’t know for sure that the vines on top of the wall grew around her by feeding on her Stormlight overnight, though it certainly sounds like they could have. While following Darkness, then, she does think about not having eaten since the night before, and picks up the purple fruit. It’s not clear whether or not she got a bite, but even if she did, she used it plus what little was left from last night, all on trying to heal the girl Darkness killed. But after that,
“Lift seized two of his fruits and stared him right in the eyes as she took a big, juicy bite of one and chewed.”
While we’re not told specifically, it seems safe to assume that she ate them both while following Darkness the rest of the way, and that’s why she thinks about the “couple pieces of fruit.”
L: Ah, yes. I had forgotten that bit.
A: Even so, it does seem a bit much to think she could make that little tree grow so much. My best guess would be that producing vines and leaves doesn’t take as much energy as producing fruit, but that’s a pretty lame justification. It really doesn’t seem like two pieces of fruit should let her grow that much stuff.
L: Moving on… So Lift doesn’t just GROW the vines to push aside the bar inside the window—she directs them WHERE to grow as well. I feel like this is a significant distinction.
A: Back in the Interlude, she grew some vines up around the window frame to pop it open and let her into the palace, but this seems much more finicky. I’m assuming skill increases with practice, but this is pretty wild.
L: It raises some interesting questions for sure. Is she using some sort of subconscious negotiation skill like Shallan tried to do with the stick? (“Wouldn’t it be nice to be fire?”)
“So, guess we go spy on them, eh?”
Wyndle whimpered, but—shockingly—nodded.
L: This little interaction between the two of them makes me so happy. Wyndle’s clearly coming around to his own responsibilities as the spren of a burgeoning Knight Radiant. With great power, Wyndle…
A: I’m so with Lift on this—I’m shocked that Wyndle agreed! But yes, absolutely happy that he’s accepting the need to do something about Darkness. It’s a scary thought, because these two up against Nale is just bizarre, but it needs to be done.
L: I love the imbalance of power. It’s a very David and Goliath archetype.
Journey before Pancakes
L: Purple fruit! Aaaaand that’s all we got about it.
A: Well, that and you take a bite straight out of it, rather than having to peel it, I guess. I can always come up with some kind of lame add-on… ;)
L: Something like a plum, maybe. So, regarding Lift stealing Darkness’s breakfast:
Most dangerous man in the world? Check.
Possibly a Knight Radiant? Check.
Owns a shardblade, and has no compunctions about killing little kids for stealing food? Check and check.
Operation Steal Breakfast is a GO.
A: Naturally. I mean, we’re all about growing and facing increasing challenges, right? Back in WoR, she thought about robbing the Bronze Palace, “Seemed like a dangerous thing to try. Not because she might get caught, but because once you robbed a starvin’ palace, where did you go next?” Guess she figured out the answer to that question.
“One of the pancakes was salty, with chopped up vegetables. Another tasted sweet. The third variety was fluffier, almost without any substance to it, though there was some kind of sauce to dip it in.”
L: First of all I’d like to say that this is one of the few (very few) times that I wish Sanderson would channel his inner Brian Jacques or GRRM and really make us TASTE these things. I always appreciated how the Redwall books could make me salivate just from the descriptions! However, Sanderson’s already edging in on nearly-too-long wordcounts, so maybe this is for the better.
Anyway. The first one sounds more like a savory okonomiyaki, as we’ve discussed previously. The second could be a type of crepe, whereas the third sounds like a modern American pancake to me.
A: That third one sounds familiar, but I can’t quite figure out what it sounds like. “Fluffy buttermilk pancake” doesn’t quite fit my idea of “almost without any substance to it” … but I’m stuck.
Thanks. This will now prey on my mind for the next week or until I figure it out. Better yet, maybe someone will address this in the comments. (Please? Pretty please? HELP!!!)
L: Help us, Obi-Wan Commentors! You’re our only hope!
A: I have a bad feeling about this…
Friends and Strangers
Tashi
“Tashi doesn’t care much for what you do here… In fact, I’d pray that he doesn’t reach your city, as I doubt you’d like the consequences.”
L: Another Herald?! I wonder if he’s the crazy king in the neighboring city that was mentioned earlier…Is this Talenel, Herald of War? Ishar? Both of them together maybe, or just a misinterpretation/mispronunciation of one of their names?
A: Did we address Nun Raylisi in Chapter 3? I get so confused trying to keep track of the names of the various gods of the myriad cultures… Nun Raylisi reminded me of Nu Ralik from the Purelake religion, but there the other half was Vun Makak, and here it’s Tashi. Or maybe Tashi and Nun Raylisi don’t have anything to do with each other. And how many of these are based on Heralds? Shards? Sheer human inventiveness?
I’m so confused… but in this case, it certainly seems that Nale knows exactly who “Tashi” is supposed to represent. My best guess is that it refers to Ishar, but I have no real support for that notion.
L: Dear Sanderson: Please give us a list of names of characters (and aliases) someday…
A: Amen.
Old Skybreaker Man
A: So… dude on (a very casual) watch at the door of Nale’s Local Skybreaker HQ. No idea if he’s important or not. He’s not a very good guard… But then, he couldn’t be expected to watch the windows, I suppose, and it’s not too shocking if he figures he’ll hear anyone at the door while he does his business.
Storming Mother of the World and Father of Storms Above
“I ain’t gonna talk about bollocks and jiggers and stuff. I’m not crass.”
L: Sure you’re not. Suuuuuuuure.
A: ::crickets::
Darkness & Co.
“He’s hunting someone in this city, Wyndle. Someone with powers… someone like me.”
L: If we didn’t know for certain that he was hunting potential surgebinders before, we know now!
“Can I see your papers again?”
“You will find them in order.”
L: I don’t know why this amused me, but it did. Just the matter-of-fact “Yes yes, I know what I’m doing, back to business please”-ness of him.
A: Like most things about Nale/Darkness, it creeps me out. He’s done everything he can to leave his humanity behind him. I’m not a big fan of drama queens, but he goes much too far the other way!!
L: See… I’m a huge fan of anti-heroes, which may be why this called to me a bit. But then later he goes too far, even for me. This isn’t to say that he might not eventually pull a heel-face turn—god knows that Jaime Lannister did for me, even after permanently disabling a child in book 1.
A: That may be part of it; I’ve never much liked the anti-hero approach. I enjoyed the Covenant books, but have no desire to reread them; it was too annoying to have the main character be so determinedly gittish. Can’t comment on ASoIaF—I’ve neither read nor watched.
“Special operative of the prince…” “…an ancient but rarely used designation.”
L: I wonder if it’s THIS prince or a past one that he gained this title from. If he, being immortal, gained said designation hundreds or even thousands of years in the past, it would still apply, and therefore adhere to the letter of the law (which definitely seems to be his modus operandi). How very… Aes Sedai of him, if it’s true. He’s the very definition of lawful neutral.
A: Well, that’s a thought. I just assumed he searched back and found some title that could be used, and arm-twisted the Tashikki prince into granting it to him. It would be much more fun as a title he was granted centuries ago!
He seemed to move too quickly for his own steps, like he was melting from shadow to shadow as he strode.
L: Some form of Power? Or simple familiarity with the terrain?
A: The Skybreakers have the surges of Gravitation and Division. While we know some of what Gravitation can do, we know almost nothing of Division (except that Dustbringers could apparently make stone burn). I read this as being indicative of Surgebinding, but not in any way we’ve seen yet. ::shrug:: I guess we’ll have to wait and see if this shows up again when we see more of the Skybreakers?
“Removing a hand leads to high rate of recidivism, as the thief is left unable to do honest work, and therefore must steal.”
L: Excuse my language, but… GodDAMN, Nale. That’s some dark s***. I mean… probably true, it makes sense logically and all, and I’m certain that he’s lived long enough to have gathered a large sample size proving this conclusion, BUT STILL. Immortals not caring for the lives of mortals is always a story trope that fascinates me because it DOES make a lot of sense, and the addition of his adherence to law just enhances this, but… dude. It was a KID.
A: So cold. Inhumanly so. I mean, the whole “chop off a hand for stealing” is a stupid sort of law, for exactly the reason he states, but that doesn’t make killing the girl a better solution.
L: It’s a very “A Modest Proposal” type solution… only not satire.
A: Yes. Loss of a hand for stealing is not an uncommon punishment historically, IIRC, but at the same time it’s not a very effective one.
L: Well… one could argue that it’s VERY effective as a crime deterrent. Commit a crime—die. That’ll sure make you stop and think before doing it.
A: As a deterrent, if it’s strictly enforced, I suppose, but as a random act it’s just bizarre and frightful. Also inhuman, dude.
L: True. :(
Wyndle: “He has eyes you cannot see.” “He will have a spren, like me.”
L: I find it veeeerrrrrry interesting that Wyndle can’t tell a Herald from a Knight Radiant.
A: I know, right? I’d have expected a spren to be able to tell, somehow. They’re supposed to Know Things.
Everything Else
L: So do we have any idea what the difference is in value between a dun vs. infused sphere? I can’t imagine that it would be TOO much, seeing as how all they’ll have to do is wait until the next highstorm and it’ll be infused again. The “devaluation” is transient, not permanent, so it can’t possibly affect the value more than a small percentage, right?
A: I think this was addressed in TWoK, maybe? The fact that it’s infused proves that it’s valid tender; if it’s dun, you can’t be 100% sure without either taking it to a professional, or waiting for the next highstorm to hang it out for recharging. But you’re correct, the difference in value isn’t all that high.
“What game are the Alethi playing?”
L: Again, this seems like a very mature thought for her. (I’m clinging to this tinfoil theory until the bitter end, Alice.)
A: I’ll laugh myself sick if this turns out to be true, Lyn. I don’t think it is, but it’s a hilarious theory.
L: ::sings:: It’s my tinfoil, and I’ll wear it if I want to, wear it if I want to, wear it if I want to…
A: Bahahahahahaha!
Nice of them to leave it out, up high enough that only she could get to it.
L: Shades of Wayne from Mistborn Era 2, here.
A: So much yes.
“She hadn’t realized that she’d picked a spot surrounded by and overgrown with vines…”
L: I’m willing to bet an emerald broam that they weren’t there when she went to sleep, and she’s been growing them in her sleep somehow. This is interesting, that she can use her powers unconsciously.
A: It’s not 100% provable, but it certainly seems reasonable, given the wording. It’s a very Sanderson thing to do.
“You showed off your powers to that guard captain, knowing that she’d write a report about what she saw. And you knew that would draw Darkness’s attention.”
L: Told you I’d get back to this eventually. Here we have another example of Sanderson’s mastery of hiding the truth from the reader through use of an unreliable narrator. We saw him do the same thing in the original Mistborn novel, where Kelsier was planning things that the reader never suspected, even though we were in his head. I love it when he does stuff like this.
“Infused spheres, captain?” “I traded for them.”
L: From Stump, I wonder? Can Truthwatchers infuse gems? Which order was speculated to do that, again? I can’t see how anyone would have any infused gems at all this far after a highstorm, unless someone invested them…
A: Earlier, Lift mentioned the unexpected highstorm, and that only those who had left spheres out by luck would have them infused. All things considered, though, I don’t think Hauka would have gotten infused spheres from Stump, knowing what we know about the latter’s activities. Then again, since she doesn’t entirely know what those activities are, maybe so.
Regarding children sewing while taking lessons in order to pay for the education:
L: Yet another really cool little worldbuilding touch! Guess there’s no tax-funded public education in this town.
A: In sort of a bizarre way, I kind of like this idea. Then again, I’m the one who always has to have something to do with my hands in order to concentrate. Keeps taxes down, anyway.
“Was that necessary?”
L: He says what we’re all thinking!
Lift resurrecting the girl…
L: YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.
It fails.
L: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
A: ::sniff::
“Ah,” Wyndle said. “Yes, separated from the rest of the city by raised lips. Rainwater in the streets will flow outward, rather than toward this cistern, keeping it pure. In fact, it seems that most of the streets have a slope to them, to siphon water outward. Where does it go from there though?”
L: Wyndle making mention of the rainwater being siphoned away from the cistern in the center is going to be important, isn’t it? I feel like Wyndle, with holes in my memory!
A: I needed to quote this just for the sake of discussion, since the question was asked early in the reread. We’re going to get a little more explanation in a future chapter, but at this point we mostly get to make note that the civil engineers did actually think about what happens when a highstorm dumps several inches of rain onto a city cut into the ground. (It’s also worth noting that a highstorm in Tashikk isn’t quite the same thing as a highstorm on the Shattered Plains. By the time the storm has crossed most of the continent, it’s much weaker; there’s far less wind, and presumably somewhat less rain as well.) Given the location of Yeddaw, I sort of assume they had the foresight to carve a drainage channel to the east that slopes all the way to the river.
“But of course, this wasn’t the right kind of listening.”
L: So SHE knows the right kind, but she’s not telling US. Stingy kid! Give us some intel already, Lift!
She’d stolen from a palace, and the starvin’ emperor of Azir. She’d needed something interesting to try next.
L: Easy there, Locke Lamora Jr. Next thing we know she’ll be telling someone she only needs to hold them until Wyndle shows up, or punching old ladies. (And now I want to see this team-up.)
A: Once again, I have no idea what you’re talking about. (Well, only sort of one.) Someday, I’ll have to go read those…
A: Well, there you have it—another episode of the LynAndAlice comedy show. (L: ::jazz hands::) Or whatever. Not so comedic now; Darkness shows up, and things get… well, darker. Join us in the discussion and share your insights. And please, someone, identify that pancake for me.
Lyndsey (gleefully) played a lawful evil character in D&D once or twice, but even she thinks that Darkness took this a bit too far. You can follow her writing or cosplay work on her website or follow her on facebook or twitter.
Alice, on the other hand, has trouble playing Monopoly or Risk because she hates being mean to people and can’t collude worth beans. She is enjoying the discussion of the Oathbringer preview chapters more every week, and hopes you all have seen and had the opportunity to participate in the kickstarter Kaladin project by The Black Piper. (Time is running out on that one, by the way. Just sayin’.)
Wyndle? Pssh.
Lift: I just have to hold you until Szeth gets here.
Another thing that makes Lift and Wyndle a stronger team than they would be as individuals is that Lift has a high street level intelligence whereas Wyndle has a higher level of book smart intelligence. Both intelligent in their own ways; but both lacking in some errors. However, the one’s weakness is the other’s strength and vice versa. I think this will prove to be important in the future. If we will not see this in practice later in ED, then I think we will see it later in SA.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
No one is trading infused spheres from Stump. Stump is trading her dun spheres for other’s infused spheres at a loss to herself because she needs the Stormlight (even if she doesn’t fully comprehend what she is doing). People are suspicious of her because there does not seem to be any logic to what she is doing so they assume she is up to something.
Could it be injera? Although injera is more spongy than fluffy. But I really like injera :)
Another great reread, thanks :)
@2 AndrewHB – your comment made me think of the DC superhero Firestorm.
Some time ago I read this science book called The Hidden Life of Trees, by Peter Wohlleben. It explains that trees are expert nutrient hoarders; their reserves feed them during eventual rough times. Maybe Lift just gave a little push, and convinced that tree to go all out, consequences be damned?
@Alice I’ll second the recommendation for the Lamora books. They were a decent way to pass some of the time between Cosmere tomes.
On executions for minor crimes, Charles Dickens wrote about draconian laws in the 18th century:
“Death is Nature’s remedy for all things, and why not Legislation’s? . . . . Not that it did the least good in the way of prevention—it might almost have been worth remarking that the fact was exactly the reverse—but, it cleared off (as to this world) the trouble of each particular case, and left nothing else connected with it to be looked after.”
On quick growing trees:
I had a horticulture class where the teacher commented on how slow growth with proper nutrition resulted in a harder, stronger wood. Go too far the other way, and you got wood so weak all it was good for was making paper.
I don’t know much about forestry but I gathered this was the ultimate tree-quality insult. Maybe Lift’s trees get a lot of sneers once she’s left the area.
Does Lift eat meat? I don’t remember. But here, it seems all she is on a high carb diet. Which of course she immediately expends, I think the fruits are because she just needs energy but it it not a very efficient source.
@9
Yes, she eats a sausage in her interlude.
@8 There’s some research that the bloody code allowed for the upper classes to feel merciful by allowing judges to commute death sentences to transportation (to America or Australia or other colonies). I think it could also simplify prosecuting a criminal case as it encourages the accused to throw themselves on the mercy of the court.
That implies a level of discretion allowed to judges that Darkness rejects, of course. Pity no one ever made him sit through a philosophy of law course.
Don’t forget, Darkness didn’t kill the girl for stealing. He killed her for striking him.
@6 Bruno. That sounds like something Sanderson would look up and use.
I also think there’s facets to Lift’s abilities we don’t understand yet, all tied to the fact that she gets Stormlight from food. From what I remember, using her Edgedancing and healing abilities seems to drain her faster than encouraging growth out of plants…maybe that’s tied to the fact that Wyndle is a cultivation spren?
Anyway, thoroughly enjoying the reread ladies!
I think sometimes you just have to accept “because magic” when you can’t equate a one to one ratio of stormlight/food to Radient output.
I do understand the fun for those who like to really get into the magic system and poke around to see if the author keeps true to his world but I mostly go for the flow of the story and let that stuff sort of slide over me.
That’s what makes Brandon’s stories so good. He writes for multiple types of readers.A person can enjoy these stores on several different levels.
I have always assumed that by breaking the oath pack the heralds had to unbond and leave their honor blades (as it shows in the prelude to WoK). I have a theory that Nale has bonded to a spren (we see that his minions have presumebly bonded spren too) and it is through this bond that he gets his shard blade and surgebinding power. This falls in line with what Wyndle says about him having a spren and he is definitely broken enough to attract one. Why he thinks it is okay for himself and his minions to bond spren while others shouldn’t, or why high spren are okay with killing other Proto-Radiants are questions that have still yet to be answered.
@1: Oh man, you’re so right. SO SO RIGHT. Also I think we might be best friends now, so good luck with that.
@12: You’re right. Mea culpa.
@14: For other authors I would absolutely agree with you. Brandon prides himself on keeping his magic systems logical and internally consistent, though, so I feel as if, if we’re going to nitpick on anyone’s magic, it should be his!
Psh. Everything Lift says is profound. It only varies from funny-profound to grim-profound.
Uh, Wyndle? You live with Lift, and are shocked by unscrupulousness? Or did you expect better behavior from people who aren’t Lift?
She hated dreams. They either showed her a life she couldn’t have or a life that terrified her. What was the good of either one? I can relate. :-(
the speed of a snapping rat trap — are there rats on Roshar? *checks* Yes, there are.
Leaves opened, stretched, and gave a good-morning yawn. *giggle*
Seconding the wish to learn more about the food-to-Stormlight metabolism process.
“Lift doesn’t seem as if she’s eating considerably more than she should” I suspect she does, when possible. But it hasn’t yet been quantified in the text, because Sanderson is being stingy with details here. *scowl*
Wombo @@@@@ 15: Lift observes that Darkness “summoned” his Shardblade before killing the girl in the market. I think when radiants use their sprenblades, it is usually described as the blade as just appearing. Long way of saying I agree with you!
Some of the comments from chapter 2 discuss possible ways that the plants can be getting more energy than just what Lift is giving them from her Investiture. They also brought up the question of “what happens to a spren when the radiant dies” that Wyndle mentions in this chapter. Given his answer, it seems like it’s traumatic, but it doesn’t kill them.
So, there you go.
@14:
The reason it’s worth discussing is not that we think Lift shouldn’t be able to do it. It’s that Wyndle thinks that, and he presumably knows more than we do about Surgebinding. Not everything, but more than we do.
I’m thinking Wyndle is just plain wrong, because Lift isn’t an oxymoronic “typical EdgeDancer”.
…Actually, does anyone remember if Darkness’s blade glows? I know “dead” blades don’t and I don’t think Honorblades do either, but that could settle the question of whether or not he’s a Radiant and a Herald.
Wombo @15:
IIRC, there is a WoB that one of the ex-Heralds returned for their Blade – and maybe even textual evidence somewhere in WoK/WoR that the Shamans didn’t have all 10.
And aren’t the ex-Heralds basically spren themselves, at this point? What, with being cognitive shadows, etc. So, is it even possible for them to form Nahel bonds?
As to the whole “blending into Ddarkness” schtick, yea, doesn’t seem to be connected to Division surge. However, the ex-Heralds likely have powers that aren’t connected to their Blades and corresponding surges. I am thinking about how “Taln” was able to intercept that poisoned dart.
Could Tashi be Ishar? Hm… On the one hand, Nale seems to trust Ishar implicitely. On the other, what he says about Tashi is very ominous.
And on the gripping hand, who is this new king of Tukar? I have always thought that there was something fishy about him – that he was either a world-hopper or an ex-Herald.
I have to say that I have always liked Lift, but I didn’t expect the intricate planning on her part revealed in this chapter. Which made me love her. I can’t wait for her to meet the main cast.
re: how does Lift manage to do stuff on Stormlight
This is exactly the question that makes it really difficult for me to enjoy the Craft Sequence by Gladstone, and why I have little interest in Awakening from Nalthis.
I am absolutely willing to accept some fudging when it comes to “how much Stormlight/swallowed metal/stored weight or healing” because there’s no concrete numbers put on the page. It lets it become a plot point when necessary (like how at the end of Words of Radiance they realize that they’re gonna need to start rationing Stormlight, or when Vin realizes the giant chunk of atium whatshisname gave her was actually hardly any at all), but doesn’t make me “count bullets” through an action sequence unless it’s absolutely pivotal.
Ooh, another example: Ghost Story, by Jim Butcher. Whiting out for spoilers: Dresden learns how to use ghostly magic by powering it with memories, and then realizes in the middle of a fight that he just used up his last memory and is about to turn himself inside out as a ghost because he used up his “life force” to fight. It’s foreshadowed and done intentionally, so once it happens you go “OH MAN I should have seen that coming!” but you also don’t feel like you should have been keeping track, since “how many memories of magic does Dresden have” isn’t something we can pin to a number anyway.
Conversely, with Awakening, I always feel like I’m just waiting for Vivenna or Vasher to run up against that wall constantly, since Breath is such a concretely finite resource, even though it’s almost infinitely-recoverable. I know end-positive, end-neutral, end-negative are key concepts for the various Cosmere magic systems; I’m not criticizing the “realism” or “well-writtenness” of the system, just trying to articulate why it doesn’t appeal to me. That’s probably a contributing factor to why Awakening gets used so little in Warbreaker, IMO, especially when compared to Allomancy or Surgebinding.
(And the Craft Sequence is even worse, since the characters are literally powering magic with their own souls which ALSO somehow double as every day currency?! Yes, I’d like to pay for my beer with a piece of my literal soul, what, no. But that’s not on topic.)
You can also draw an interesting comparison to Sel, here. AonDor has the distance handicap built in, but an Elantrian basically just has to be awake and capable of moving their arms to use magic, since it comes from the Dor rather than their personal energy. Same with Forging – as long as you have the knowledge to do so, there doesn’t appear to be any “cost” to the magic. ChayShan and Bloodsealing are a little more inhibited since they both require pretty high-energy investment of either doing a kata or drawing blood, but those are both more renewable than Breath or even Stormlight. The “cost” is frontloaded in, you might say, since the focus on shape on Sel requires a high degree of initial knowledge.
Way too long; didn’t read: Characters with a mana bar are okay and allow for some fudging, characters with an inventory bug me and are annoying to read.
So I found a WoB where he says that Nalan (Darkness) has his old honorblade and is not bonded to a spren. Though he says there’s an asterisk to this that we will find out in OB (which means the beta readers already know! Ugh jealous).
@23 If you played DnD you were always the one who never used spells or potions in case you needed them later, weren’t you? :) I carried so much junk around in Baldur’s Gate because I might actually need a potion of invisibility at some point.
Awakening is affected by the skill of the Awakener, I’m pretty sure Vasher can do things with fewer breaths because of how good he is. Breath can be just as fuzzy as Stormlight, it’s just that awakeners think they can apply numbers to it. Let’s hope no one finds a Radiant engineer’s handbook for calculating Stormlight expenditures.
I expect we’ll get a different view on awakening if we ever get that Warbreaker sequel. I hope you will find it more appealing.
@24 Can you give us a link to that WoB?
@23, SunDriedRainbow:
LOL!!!
I still want a Bag of Holding in real life. Actually I want several, one for each room of my house, and one to carry with me. My house might be clean at that point.
I was always the weak wizard, but a friend was a much more powerful one and gave me a few things to help me out. But I still remember killing a bug creature with my staff and a perfect 20 roll after being knocked out and forgetting all my spells – yet again.
Based on this, you like the One Source of the WoT. Because the users are drawing from an outside source, they just have a limiter on how much each can personally draw at one time. Unless aided by a device, but even then, there is an upper limit.
I can’t really say much about Ghost Story. I rip through all the Dresden books in a few months two year ago. They have rather blended and details have gone very fuzzy. Except for Mouse. Mouse is great and the writing improves greatly after he is around.
@26- Here you go: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1178
SunDriedRainbow @23 – That was a fascinating analysis, and I enjoyed reading it very much! Especially since I’m a person who tends to “count bullets” but am less like to focus on where the gunpowder comes from.
@25 I’ve only played twice, but YES OH MY GOD. And you’re right, but as far as I can tell/remember no matter how good Vasher is, he can’t break Breaths down further than they’re already segmented. I posted in the warbreaker reread a few times about how the economy doesn’t make much sense either – the Returned of Hallendren consume 20? 30? 50? breaths per week; how does that match to the birth rate/emigration/immigration rate? Basically, it’s not that Awakening is BAD, it’s that it irks me on a very specific, pedantic level.
@27 I considered comparing WOT-channeling to Sel, but I thought the comment had gotten ridiculous so I stopped. I actually think it’s notable how when you get to the Brandon WOT books, characters get tired from channeling way faster than they did in the RJ books, where it was rarely an issue. To me, that feels like he was trying to emphasize pretty much the only baked in limitation to channeling (outside of personal strength, like you said) to make it more of a scarce resource.
@26 Thanks. Well there goes my theory, it was good while it lasted.
@30 They’re segmented to different sizes though. Not all breaths are equal, even though the science of awakening tends to assume they are. Sanderson has a bit more fudge room than it looks.
Well, if early modern London is a good model of Hallandran, then it would have a ridiculously high rate of immigration. That Breath gives better health would probably keep the death rate a bit lower. That implies some awful things about the fate of drabs though. If everyone but you has magical protection against the cholera in the water, you aren’t going to do so well.
What I want to know is why there isn’t an immortal aristocracy. In today’s money, enough breaths for the fifth heightening is something like $60 million, which seems like it would be well within the reach of the .1%.
@32 maybe there is an immortal aristocracy, but they keep themselves on the down low least jealousy from the proletariat get them killed. Or that could be more of a thing in the countries that don’t worship breath consuming leaches.
The discussion of how Lift can only access food while it’s in her stomach made me think of Mistborn. Is it possible she’s “burning” food in a similar manner to the Allomancers?
The girl’s death was sickening and saddening, but I snorted a little when the shopkeeper protested that it was “barbaric” to kill her instead of cutting off her hand, and at Nale’s quizzical expression in response.
Love the theory that Lift is way older than she appears due to her Boon/Curse and that she only resumed aging after bonding with her spren and starting to use storm light. Makes one wonder whether storm light/investiture is a reversal agent for the Nightwatcher’s old magic. Or maybe it is similar to Kaladin and his slave brands. Storm light hasn’t healed those yet because he still sees himself as the former slave. The brands are symbolic of how the Light eyes wronged him. I feel that when he is ready to put aside his anger the brands will be healed. With Lift, perhaps she is beginning to see herself as someone who needs to grow up now that the desolation is upon them, therefore Storm light is able to heal her.
@22 I’m reasonably certain Tashi is Talenel.
First since if he shows up another Desolation is on and secondly because of his pancake.
There’s something called a “Dutch pancake” that fits the description of ‘light and fluffy and almost nothing to it;’ but what I had imagined there was puff pastry – like tiny versions of what they use to make cream puffs; I have actually served those with chocolate dipping sauce, DE-lish.
Even if Nalan doesn’t have a spren as a Herald, his acolytes would surely have them so it’s a good thing that Wyndle warned Lift about it.
Also, re: Tashi and the other “gods” – I suspect that at least some of them are the Unmade. Personally, I thought that maybe Tashi was Ishar. (But the name also kept reminding me of something from the Narnia books too. :-)
aggie1 @38 – BEIGNETS!!!!! You got me with the cream puffs, because I used to make beignets with cream puff batter. That’s what I was reaching for, because a proper beignet is light and fluffy and airy and is often served with a dipping sauce.
Ahhhhh. I feel better now.
I have no idea if that’s what Brandon had in mind, but it’s what I was looking for. Now I need to go make them.
@38 – Comment is gone. I guess someone didn’t care for beignets? Lol
I’m almost certain Nun Raylisi is Rayse, current holder of the shard Odium.
@Alice:
I brought up the question earlier in the re-read of how Yeddaw is able to survive a highstorm, given that it is an underground city. I still have not come across a satisfactory explanation.
Let’s look at it this way. The closest approximation we can come to the situation in Yeddaw may be the chasms in the Shattered Plains. We saw what happens when a highstorm sweeps through the Shattered Plains: a wall of water roaring through the chasms with tremendous force. And there is enough water passing through that one has to be very high above the bottom of the chasm to avoid being swept away (as Kaladin and Shallan almost were).
Now, the Shattered Plains is a natural formation that extends for thousands of square miles, so it is reasonable to believe that all that water is dispersed through natural outlets once the storm passes.
But, Yeddaw is not a natural geographic formation that provides thousands of square miles of land for the water to drain out of. As we are told, it is an underground city cut into solid rock using shardblades, with no natural flloodwater outlets .leading from underground. Even if we allow for smaller winds and rain than in the Shattered Plains, I would still expect a tremendous amount of water to fall down into the City, not just directly from the rainstorm, but because the City, with channels open to the surface, will naturally act as a drain for all the water that falls into the surrounding area! This is a real problem that should, ordinarily, make it impossible to survive in the City during a highstorm, so I expected a little bit more of an explanation of how Yeddaw manages it than the handwaving we’ve seen so far, future chapter notwithstanding.
Incidentally, I had a bit of a chuckle thinking about the engineers carving a drainage channel to the river. The City is some ways under ground while the river is on the surface several miles away. The drainage channel would have to slope up!
It all depends on the local topography, doesn’t it? For the sake of logic, I assume that Yeddaw is situated somewhat higher than the river – all it would take is a rise of a hundred feet or so. Since rivers are generally situated lower than their surroundings, it seems reasonable. I’ll have to look at the rest off the geography when I’m back at my computer.
This story reminds me of a children’s comic my mother likes about a bear who loves pancakes. In German he is called Petzi, although the original name seems to be Rasmus Klump.
There is a discussion in WOK between Dalinar and a highprince (Hatham?) regarding Sesamalex Dar, a major city in the western part of Roshar. It is described as being built in a rift with resistance to flooding from the porosity of the bedrock. Yeddaw is in that region and may have a similar bedrock porosity. Then the builders just needed to cut sufficient drainage channels leading out of the city to drainage ponds to prevent serious flooding. The labrynthian design of the city that is depicted is also intended to prevent the kind of storm surges that occurred in the chasms of the shattered plains. As has been mentioned, the highstorms are also less powerful this far west.
Wetlander @43:
I agree that if the topography of the area is such that the plain on which Yeddaw is situated is at a higher elevation than the nearby river, then drainage channels cut to the river could work to drain off the stormwater. And that is not the only potential solution. For example, a porous aquifer nearby that feeds into an underground stream or lake some distance away could be an acceptable solution. The story does not contain any of these potential solutions. Given that Brandon usually does a ton of research to decide even the most minute details in his stories, I expected him to include a couple of sentences in the description of the city to show that the city builders understand the potential menace posed by water draining into the city during a high storm, and have made adequate provision for it.
What struck me, really, is that the sole reason why Yeddaw was cited below ground into the bedrock was to escape the strong winds that accompany a high storm. And yet, there is no recognition in the story that citing the city underground invites a much more deadly problem (compared to leaving the city above ground): the fact that the open channels to the surface would cause flooding underground due to the City acting as a drain for all the stormwater falling on the plain. Talk about jumping from the frying pan into the fire! (the reason there is such massive flooding in the chasms is that all the rainwater falling on the Shattered Plains finds its way into the chasms).
Anyway, the lack of recognition in the story that siting the City underground may avoid the wind, but compounds the problems with water accompanying high storms, and the lack of an adequate explanation of how the city deals with the potential flooding, makes the location of the city underground seem gimmicky to this old civil engineer. That is not something I expected in a Sanderson book.
@46 I thought he mentioned the drainage system and how there are large channels that are for the flooding where no one builds anything. Also that there’s a collection of the water for farming and drinking. So they store some of the water as well.
Is the “Food-to-Stormlight metabolism” unique to Lift? Or it’s a shared ability among edgedancers?
Almost certainly a unique abillity of Lift, granted by the Nightwatcher (or Cultivation).